Ep. 92 The Stern Truth: The Power of Downsizing With Lisa Catallo

Lisa Catallo is a mom, a grandma, a podcaster, a clinical counsellor, has a group practice, and is a coach for therapists. She is a woman of many hats, so she knows that prioritizing her life is a must.

Right off the bat, Lisa mentioned how downsizing helped her through a rough transitional period in her life. She was burnt out, with the lease coming up on her practice space, and going through personal issues. Lisa found the power in downsizing.

When Lisa was trying to manage two businesses at once, her own business coach said that she couldn’t give her full attention to both. She eventually agreed but is still emphatic that downsizing is not quitting - think of it more like scaling down. As I like to put it, sometimes, we need to slow down in order to speed up. 

A self-admitted late bloomer as an entrepreneur, that didn’t stop Lisa. We both agree that it’s never too old to pivot or to grow in a new direction. Growth doesn’t stop at some magical age.

To cap off the episode, Lisa gave incredible golden nuggets, particularly to her younger self. It’s going to be a bumpy ride. The hardest things you do can be so fulfilling. Don’t do it all in isolation. Do the opposite of what you thought success was because, in the long run, it’s worth it.  


Get in touch with Lisa here:


Website: www.grouppracticenetwork.ca
Email: lisa@grouppracticenetwork.ca
Podcast: Empowered to Lead 
IG: @grouppracticenetwork
FB: @grouppracticenetwork 


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Transcript

[00:00:00] Marshall Stern: You go online, you see all the so-called experts. You know, everyone's talking about 10X-ing your business, growing your business, scaling, right? The big S word of scaling your business. No one is really out there talking about downsizing. Well, my friends, grab a pad of paper and pen because today we are sitting down with the amazing Lisa Catallo, who is a client of mine, and we talk about her entrepreneurial journey and how her downsizing was actually intentional and has allowed her the space to actually go to the next level with her business.

[00:00:44] Downsizing can be a good thing. I always say slow down in order to speed up. That's what this episode's all about. It is about downsizing. It is about changing course, adjusting, and knowing when it is time to do so, so that you can actually build something that you really deeply are passionate about.

[00:01:09] Enough about that, I want you to hear it for yourself. Enjoy

[00:01:18] Hi, I'm Marshall Stern and I've spent over 35 years leading and growing multiple small businesses. I know firsthand the struggles of entrepreneurship, feeling isolated, lonely, overwhelmed, and feeling like you have to do it all by yourself. I've been through multiple recessions, and I have felt the highs and the lows. 

[00:01:37] I've been there, and I get it. This podcast is here to change that. Every week I will bring you straight talking advice, real world strategies, and honest conversations about what it takes to succeed in business without the fluff, the gimmicks, or the sugar-coated. If you're ready to stop spinning your wheels and start making real progress, then you are in the right place.

[00:02:00] This is The Stern Truth. 

[00:02:05] Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of The Stern Truth Business Unfiltered. My friends, I'm so excited. It has taken seven months- ... or so, six, seven. Can I still do that? My daughter said- 

[00:02:14] Lisa Catallo: Yeah, you can. 

[00:02:15] Marshall Stern: My daugh – no, I don't know. My daughter said that's so 2025. 

[00:02:19] Lisa Catallo: My 16-year-old is still doing it, so… 

[00:02:23] Marshall Stern: She's still...

[00:02:23] Cool. Okay, okay. So, it has taken me six, six or seven months to get this person on my left or right, Lisa Catallo, to do this podcast sit-down with us. Lisa, how are you? 

[00:02:34] Lisa Catallo: I am good. I'm slow, apparently. 

[00:02:37] Marshall Stern: Well, it, it took some convincing. 

[00:02:39] Lisa Catallo: It did. 

[00:02:40] Marshall Stern: Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. All right. So, we've been working together for quite a while, and it's taken...

[00:02:46] I've been working on you for, working with and on you for about eight months, and we're finally here. 

[00:02:51] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:02:51] Marshall Stern: Actually, it's been more like eight months, not six, seven months, but six, seven sounded better. More, better visual for the YouTube show. Tell us, tell our listeners all the amazing things that Lisa does.

[00:03:02] Lisa Catallo: All the amazing things that I do. Okay, where do I start? I am a clinical counsellor. I have been a therapist for about 10, nine or 10 years. I have a group practice that I recently downsized. I coach therapists who are growing a group practice, so that mean basically as a small business, having people work for them or under their umbrella.

[00:03:36] I have my own podcast. I am a mom. I am a grandma. I wear a whole bunch of hats. 

[00:03:45] Marshall Stern: Say what? You're a grandma? 

[00:03:47] Lisa Catallo: I am. I don't look it, though, right? 

[00:03:49] Marshall Stern: You do not look it. You must have, you must have had your kids when you were, like, 10. 

[00:03:53] Lisa Catallo: I had them very young, yes. Yeah. 

[00:03:55] Marshall Stern: So, you said something about, downsizing.

[00:04:00] Lisa Catallo: Yes. 

[00:04:01] Marshall Stern: can you elaborate to us? 

[00:04:03] Lisa Catallo: Yes. Oh, let's just dig right in, eh? 

[00:04:06] Marshall Stern: Oh, right in.

[00:04:07] Lisa Catallo: Oh, boy. so, I have had a group practice in some shape or form for the last about seven years. I had a practice with a partner, and that, she decided to end that when we were in COVID. And then I started my own group practice, or a second one on my own, Panorama Wellness, and grew that to two locations.

[00:04:39] We had an office in Langley and one in Surrey. I had, I think there was, like, 20 therapists, under the umbrella and a couple of admin people, and a couple of years ago realized that I was feeling pretty burnt out, and I didn't have words for that even though I'm a therapist. I think there were a bunch of things that were falling apart around me.

[00:05:07] And through... I was going through a divorce, and knew that my lease was coming up on, for my Langley location, and decision-making process. I had tried to sell it, the one location, and just my timeline and the people who were interested, their timeline didn't work out, and I just knew for myself energy-wise and capacity that I needed to downsize rather than...

[00:05:40] Sorry, I need to cough here. 

[00:05:41] Rather than renewing a lease and going another five years or finding another space, that it needed to be a downsizing option, so, closed that office. That office had all contractors, independent contractors there, because mostly with therapy with group practices, we mostly have contractors.

[00:06:05] Some have employees, but we tend to gravitate more towards contractors. And my Surrey office, I kept that, and we have renters there, or sub-leasers. And so, yeah, that's a quick answer to a big question. 

[00:06:25] Marshall Stern: Well, we're going to go into it deeper because I, and the reason... No, but seriously, because the reason being is, and I want to get into your journey… 

[00:06:32] Lisa Catallo: Yeah.

[00:06:32] Marshall Stern: …that led up to that too, because there's a lot of other things, a lot of things you do, right? You support other group practice owners, I know that. You have your podcast. You have your group coaching programs. Like, you have all this stuff. You do amazing work, but downsizing, everyone talks about scaling.

[00:06:49] Everyone talks about upsizing. Growing, right? People are, like, quiet about the downsizing, right? 

[00:06:56] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:06:57] Marshall Stern: But the downsizing – there's some power in downsizing, isn't there? 

[00:07:02] Lisa Catallo: It's actually... I chose that term deliberately for that too, right? It's not giving up. It's not quitting. It's not shame. It's downsizing.

[00:07:14] Almost like it is still scaling, but it's scaling down rather than up. 

[00:07:19] Marshall Stern: Well, yes, but it, it's scaling down in order... It's like I always say, and I got this from one of my coaches, my mentors. He said, "From time to time, we need to slow down in order to speed up." 

[00:07:30] Lisa Catallo: Yes. 

[00:07:30] Marshall Stern: So from time to time, we need to downsize, downscale in order to scale up.

[00:07:35] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:07:36] Marshall Stern: So you might be scaling down that part of your business, but that's allowing you to have a moment, a breath, some energy built back up so you can actually scale up your other stuff, other amazing things you're doing. 

[00:07:50] Lisa Catallo: Well, you were there with me in the practical part of downsizing and closing that office.

[00:07:57] I would be willing to bet you could say my energy level changed from August or whenever we started to mid-January once I stopped being sick. and just the capacity, because one of the reasons I downsized too is because I was doing two businesses. I was trying to get the coaching going and the counseling side of things, the group practice side of things.

[00:08:23] And I remember when I started Panorama, I had a business coach and he was like, "You can't do both businesses at once. You can't give it the full attention." I'm like, "Watch me." And I couldn't. And you, I couldn't give the full attention that both of them needed. I was burning too many candles or burning from both ends.

[00:08:47] Yeah. and so yeah, just... And I would say, like, this doesn't sound very therapisty, but I am not very good at taking care of myself and managing a lot of the things. I want to excel, I want to show that I can be successful, and it took a lot to wrap my mind around that, actually, success for me means slowing down or downsizing rather than, just keep plugging through and make this happen kind of thing.

[00:09:22] Marshall Stern: I thought, like, coaches, therapists are supposed to figure... have it all figured out. Right? Therapists don't need therapists. 

[00:09:30] Lisa Catallo: Oh, I have my own therapist. I got a supervisor.

[00:09:34] Marshall Stern: Did you... Have you ever, have you ever watched Shrinking? 

[00:09:37] Lisa Catallo: Yes. 

[00:09:38] Marshall Stern: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, therapists need therapists. 

[00:09:40] Lisa Catallo: Yeah, they do. 

[00:09:41] Marshall Stern: Coaches... And coaches need coaches.

[00:09:43] And coaches need therapists. And therapists can use coaches. So, let's talk about that for a second. Therapists... So, you coach therapists. You coach group practice owners. Okay. I want... For those of you out there, if you happen to be a group practice owner, really just an owner, there's no... Hey, I want to say one thing, okay?

[00:10:02] And it's not about... This episode's not about therapy per se, but I want, I want business owners to know there's no shame, because you used the word shame. There's no shame in reaching out and have, and having a therapist. Absolutely not. in fact, I might have told you this story months ago. My, my late father had a therapist.

[00:10:20] I mean, he needed one, because he was going through a lot of stuff, but he needed one. But I remember in the eight, this is in the '80s, and, I would say, you know, I worked with him for a while, and I'd say, "Oh, you're, uh..." He said, "Oh, sorry, I'm, I'm, I have to leave," or whatever. I said, "Oh, okay. Where are you going?"

[00:10:35] He goes, "Gonna go see my, my sounding board." And he goes, "Yeah, my psychiatrist." He says, "But half the time we talk about business," and he kind of just listens. because back then there were no coaching programs to do- 

[00:10:45] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:10:45] A coach was, like, someone at school, like a football coach, right? 

[00:10:48] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:10:49] Marshall Stern: So, he actually used him half the time as this sounding board, just airing out his…

[00:10:55] What happened with this employee, with that employee, you know, the business is down, whatever. And now there's people like you and me to come in and be able to be the sounding board, but sometimes it needs to go deeper with someone like you on the therapy side as well. So, no shame in having a therapist, no shame in having a coach.

[00:11:12] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:11:13] Marshall Stern: And both. 

[00:11:14] Lisa Catallo: Yep. 

[00:11:15] Marshall Stern: How did you get into all of this? 

[00:11:18] Lisa Catallo: Into… 

[00:11:18] Marshall Stern: Well, the idea of actually the entrepreneurial side, your journey. Like, you could have just worked for someone or been a contractor for someone instead of actually multiple locations, coaching business, multiple locations, multiple businesses, big family, all of this stuff 

[00:11:35] Lisa Catallo: Yeah.

[00:11:35] I was thinking about this podcast because one of the things you said, like your, your journey, like, to being an entrepreneur, I was a late bloomer as an entrepreneur. If you had told myself, who was having kids at 24, that I would be sitting here and saying, "Yeah, I've got this business, and I actually downsized it, and I'm an entrepreneur," I would've thought you were crazy.

[00:12:02] And so yeah, it's been a journey. I sold Pampered Chef. I did like little things that I look back on that kind of planted some of those seeds. I was a secretary they called them at that time, administrative assistant. And through it all, I knew that I always wanted to help people. I wanted to especially serve or help women who experience trauma and help couples in their relationships and had the opportunity to get my master's in counseling psychology.

[00:12:42] And I crossed... I turned 50, and then I crossed the stage six days later. And, you know, even then, I don't know, I always knew that I wanted to be a part of a group practice. Like, when you're talking about what do you want to do as a therapist, where do you want to work out of, I knew I didn't want to be in an agency setting.

[00:13:05] I... But I don't know, I had an inkling that I would want to have a group practice, but I started out thinking, "Well, I can join somebody else's group practice, and I can help them succeed. I can pitch in." And then it became very clear very quickly that I should do my own thing. I drove her crazy. 

[00:13:29] I had all these ideas, "Let's try this," and "How would we get more clients and do this?" And so, then kind of took the plunge and started my own thing. 

[00:13:41] Marshall Stern: So, you really... Your new career started at age 50. 

[00:13:45] Lisa Catallo: Yep. 

[00:13:46] Marshall Stern: When did you actually step into the entrepreneur side of it? 

[00:13:49] Lisa Catallo: Right, pretty much right away. So we...

[00:13:52] I started with her, then I went on my own the- Like, I started with her, I think, in November, December, and went on my own in the spring, so it was pretty quick. 

[00:14:03] Marshall Stern: So that's, that's, that's amazing. 

[00:14:05] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:14:06] Marshall Stern: As we call, you know, when we turn 50, although the 50 now, like, The Golden Girls were 50. Like, that's – we're not 50s, right?

[00:14:14] You know, they refer to it as sort of the back half in a golf-.

[00:14:17] Lisa Catallo: Yes. 

[00:14:18] Marshall Stern: Right? The back nine. Sorry, the back nine. but it really, for you, it's the front nine. 

[00:14:22] Lisa Catallo: Yep. Lisa Catallo:

[00:14:23] Marshall Stern: This is like when you – turning 50 was like a pivotable... Pivotable. Pivotable. Keep that word in there. Don't edit it. A pivotable... I said it again.

[00:14:26] Pivotal. Pivotal. Pivotal. Pivotal. Got it.

[00:14:36] I'm older than you. Pivotal time. So, people out there, if you're listening…

[00:14:44] Yeah, we don't know, because you have a podcast. We don't know exactly who's listening unless they comment or they say, "Oh, great podcast." Yeah.  so first off, raise your hand or make a comment, say something so we know that you're actually listening, because, you know, we want to –

[00:14:56] Lisa Catallo: It's good to know.

[00:14:57] Marshall Stern: It's, it's good to know we – It's good to know. Thank you for helping out there. But, you know, I want you to know, understand, like, it's never too late. And not only... Here's the thing. Back me up on this, Lisa, please. I'll pay you to. it's never too late to start, and it's never too late to pivot. I know that's the pandemic word.

[00:15:16] And it's never too late to maybe pivoting, pivoting and downsizing, downscaling, changing in order to grow in a different direction, right? 

[00:15:26] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know how, like, and social media sends you certain memes because they know that you're following certain things, but a lot of, in the one account that I have, a lot of it says women who are, like, 40 to 55 are one of the highest rates of starting this new adventure.

[00:15:50] And you're... A lot of us are done raising kids, or you've done a lot of exploration and trying to figure out who I am, and now here we go. 

[00:16:00] Marshall Stern: Yeah. Yeah. No, 100%. And I think it's amazing. And because, you know, I'm passionate about entrepreneurs and leadership, as, as you are. And we need more of them.

[00:16:10] We're the driving force behind Canadian economy, the US economy, the world economy. Small business is, is, is everything. Okay, downsizing, difficult decision. 

[00:16:20] Lisa Catallo: Yep. 

[00:16:21] Marshall Stern: What else? Maybe that's it. What has been some of the real big challenges that you have faced in either business? 

[00:16:29] Lisa Catallo: Hmm. The first thing that comes to mind is getting clients.

[00:16:35] Marshall Stern: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:35] Lisa Catallo: You… that's hard because, well, with therapy we have certain guidelines around how, what we're allowed to say or advertise. You can't use Google reviews, you can't do a lot of the things that tend to help other businesses get known or get seen. I think imposter syndrome has been a thing, I think.

[00:17:01] Okay, you asked me what's been hard, right? Or- 

[00:17:04] Marshall Stern: Some of the challenges, yeah. I mean, no, but you- 

[00:17:06] Lisa Catallo: Yeah, challenges. 

[00:17:06] Marshall Stern: Getting clients, imposter syndrome. 

[00:17:08] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. Finding, like, so when you have people working under you, finding the ideal, for me, the ideal therapist, knowing who that is, I used to think I really...

[00:17:23] Well, I do, I love entrepreneurs. I love what I call shooting stars. but I learned I needed a mix of rock stars, of people who are there because they want you to do everything, versus people who are there to build their business and take off, and managing all the... So, I'm a therapist, so there's lots of emotions, managing all the stuff that comes up when people leave you.

[00:17:48] And I had to stop using that term, that they weren't leaving me, they were making a business decision as they moved on. There's been... I don't know, I think the only way I learn is through hard things, so I could go on for quite a while. 

[00:18:04] Marshall Stern: Well, and no, but that's gr- I mean, you mentioned, honestly, the, probably the three...

[00:18:08] And I posted this the other, the other day in some of our Facebook groups, and I, I haven't gotten enough of the data yet, but these are the three biggest challenges that I see people face, and I have faced myself in my multiple businesses. Finding clients, imposter syndrome, finding good employees or keeping good employees.

[00:18:28] And in your case, contractors, but for a lot of other business owners it would be good, good employees or contractors or, or service providers, right? Whether it's a marketing agency, a good bookkeeper, a good coach, those are the three biggest. Now, some people are saying AI now is the biggest, like, challenge.

[00:18:44] Depending on what industry you're in, okay, that's fine. but those are the three. So, it's interesting you said that. Okay, and that's kind of like what you do, why you do what you do on the coaching side as well, right? 

[00:18:55] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:18:56] Marshall Stern: That's what you're helping other group practice owners go through, pivot, downsize if they need to.

[00:19:01] Do you think it- 

[00:19:02] Lisa Catallo: Because I know, I know what it's like. 

[00:19:05] Marshall Stern: You know, yeah. 

[00:19:06] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:19:06] Marshall Stern: Yeah. You've been there. You've been there. And I... Okay, I recently, I think it was my podcast, Michael Morrison has recently... I think the episode was episode 62 or something. I had him on my podcast. He, he – I was also on his podcast.

[00:19:22] He's also a business coach, and we're very similar, very aligned in a lot of ways, just like you and I are. 

[00:19:29] He works with a lot of the same type of people, with the same philosophy and, and helping them through the same challenges, which is a lot of what we just talked about here. Talked about... One thing we talked about in this episode was the importance… when you're selecting a coach, and I don't want – we've already had that talk, so I'm not going to go into, well, the whole coaching thing.

[00:19:46] Okay. But I think it's important for people to hear this and especially if they happen to be a group practice owner or thinking about being a group practice owner, I- is that, and I'd love for you to share this with your people because I think they will get a lot out, out of it. 

[00:19:59] Lisa Catallo: Yep. 

[00:20:00] Marshall Stern: If you are struggling in your business, struggling is a loose word, if you're not where you want to be, if you find yourself doing too much and you're s- anything, those three things that Lisa mentioned, finding clients are hard or retaining clients, imposter syndrome, finding good employees or contractors, finding a coach like Lisa who has been there is so important because there's so many...

[00:20:25] We've talked about this, and there's so much fluff out there. There's so many coaches out there that get their ICF. I don't have my ICF. I have 35 years- 

[00:20:34] Lisa Catallo: I was just going to ask, what's that? 

[00:20:35] Marshall Stern: Yeah. I have 35 years business experience. You don't... Right? Like, International Coaching Federation or something. 

[00:20:41] Lisa Catallo: Okay. I need to check that out. 

[00:20:43] Marshall Stern: No, you don't. If you want to be an executive coach, a lot of corporations will say you need to be IC- Okay ... ICF certified. What's that? I love that answer. Exactly, right? No one's ever... I, okay, I'm totally going off topic for, not off topic, but just yesterday I posted a question about thinking about doing a workshop and what are some of the topics, right?

[00:21:02] I don't know if you saw this. 

[00:21:03] Lisa Catallo: Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. 

[00:21:04] Marshall Stern: Yeah. One of the topics that would resonate with that help you, right? 

[00:21:06] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:21:07] Marshall Stern: And someone, this was in another group that I'm on, it’s not one of my groups. He said, don't know who the guy is, and he goes, may I ask, what are your credentials? And I paused for a moment, and I think in 14 years of coaching I've had two people ask me that.

[00:21:24] But he wasn't asking me my coaching certificate, because he didn't know I was even a coach. Oh. So, I asked him, I said, "Curious as to why you're asking this." And he said, I can't remember his answer, but something to the effect of... And I answered, I said, "35," my answer was 35 years of, of raw business experience running multiple companies.

[00:21:41] And I said, "Well, I'm curious as to why you asked that." And he simply said, "Yeah, I'm just curious because there are a lot of people out there telling you what they want you to know, telling you to do this and to do that," and they, and I can't remember how he put it, but they have no experience. So, it's exactly- 

[00:21:56] Lisa Catallo: Here's the recipe.

[00:21:57] If you follow it, you're going to go make a million dollars if you- 

[00:22:01] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:22:01] Lisa Catallo: …do exactly what I tell. A million dollars in three months. 

[00:22:04] Marshall Stern: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And you know what? Lisa, you know, you and I have been around the block. We're like, we’re seasoned, right? Yeah. And this stuff isn't new. Back, but back in the...

[00:22:15] It wasn't always in your face. It wasn't on Instagram and TikTok and... Not that I'm on TikTok. Scrap that. LinkedIn, Facebook, and all that stuff. It was on, like, the back five pages of Success Magazine or Fortune Magazine or Inc. or Entrepreneur or the newspaper. You know?  It was like that. Rock and roll to $100,000 a month or whatever it was.

[00:22:36] Like, it was always out there. It's just now it's you don't have to look for it, because you just click on one. 

[00:22:42] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:22:42] Marshall Stern: And it’s all… BOOM.

[00:22:44] Okay. How do, not just for group practice owners, business owners, entrepreneurs, how do you think we should navigate all this noise? Because here's the thing, you have this special skill set, because you got the therapy side of it and then you have the coaching side.

[00:22:59] So how... There's so much... Okay, I'm going to change the question. There's so much crap in the world, so much noise and so much hate and, and wars and violence and whatever, and then there's all of us out there saying this, our messages. Everyone's throwing messages out there trying to get people to get clients. How do we as entrepreneurs navigate all the noise, all the white noise? 

[00:23:22] Lisa Catallo: Mm. 

[00:23:22] Marshall Stern: Well, it's not really white noise, it's noise. 

[00:23:25] Lisa Catallo: Yeah, it feels like there's a couple answers in there. So, from the side of navigate the noise of people who are saying, "Hey, I can support you," or "I can help you grow your business," that part of, how do you connect with them?

[00:23:39] Does their personality match with you? is their vision or their leadership style something that feels in alignment or feels authentic to you and what your goals are with that? And I... Maybe it's because I'm a therapist, like that relationship is so huge for me, and, both in my clinical work and as a coach because, if I feel like I have to come across as a salesman, I am not showing up the best way for this person.

[00:24:15] And so if you want a million dollars in three months, I am not your person, but if you want someone who's going to help walk alongside you and go, "Okay, what are your goals," I can help you get there, based on your personality, your values, and all of that. So, I think that's huge. from the other side, side of it, like all that noise that's going on, and me as a business owner, how do I even stand out in there?

[00:24:44] Or like when you're saying AI, or that how do I get clients, it feels like there's all of these methods or ways, or if you just do this, or if you use this tool kind of thing. I think it was actually in your group a couple years ago when we... when counseling was starting to get saturated, I was like, "How do you guys handle this, that aren't therapists?"

[00:25:12] And everything is, you niche, you stand out, for, again, your ideal client. So, whether you're looking for someone to work with or like to help you or for you to help, who do you help? And stick with that. Know that the core value, the core of, who I am, what I want to provide, and what am I looking for in support.

[00:25:39] I hope I answered that question. 

[00:25:42] Marshall Stern: Well, you did, and it's really... it's like the Simon Sinek, the famous TED Talk, right? It's people, people buy not...  I've seen it so many times, I should know, but people don't buy... unless it's like a widget, and I've talked about this in a previous episode, right?

[00:25:56] People buy from people. Especially in this, in the service industry, people buy from people. People buy people's why. Not knowingly, it's subconscious, right? 

[00:26:11] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:26:12] Marshall Stern: If you're not in alignment with their why, if you don't buy into their why, it's like the whole... because that was his, his whole Apple example.

[00:26:19] Apple's why. 

[00:26:20] Lisa Catallo: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:21] Marshall Stern: If it's, if someone doesn't want the beauty and, of the, the design and, and be part of a community and be part of like, what would you call it? Like, a, a mission that Apple's on, and part of that, right? They just want, right, right now, because the TED Talk was back in when I think there was, like, i- iPods and whatever.

[00:26:40] But now people just want a cell phone to make phone calls Apple's not the answer for them necessarily, right? 

[00:26:48] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:26:49] Marshall Stern: So, they make things simple and elegant and chic, but they have a... It's a movement. It's... Right? And I'm not a... I have an iPhone. We have iPads, but I have Mac, or PC computers, because I can't understand Mac computers.

[00:27:02] That keyboard drives me crazy. But people, people live by it, like they swear by it, like they are Macheads or whatever they call them.

[00:27:09] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:27:09] Marshall Stern: And they have this huge, huge raving fan following. and I think most of us as business owners need to step back and take a look at what they do- 

[00:27:20] Lisa Catallo: Mm... 

[00:27:20] Marshall Stern: …right, and how they position themselves, and we need to stand for something.

[00:27:25] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:27:26] Marshall Stern: And how there's too many... Too much noise out there. Anyways, I, I went off topic a bit, because there's still all this other noise, all these other people coming at us and all these other messages with just political unrest. 

[00:27:37] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:27:37] Marshall Stern: Right? So, whether it's the therapist side of you or the coach side of you, how do we as business owners and entrepreneurs stay- 

[00:27:45] Lisa Catallo: Mm

[00:27:46] Marshall Stern: …freaking sane? 

[00:27:47] Lisa Catallo: Other than not going on social media or watching the news- 

[00:27:52] Marshall Stern: Maybe that's, maybe that's it. Maybe that's the, the strategy. 

[00:27:54] Lisa Catallo: I think that's part of it, is monitoring when you access that information.  a lot of times, like I would recommend noticing what time of day you can handle that. and then, you know, not that we stick our heads in the sand or everything is sunshine and roses when it actually isn't, but, like, finding positives.

[00:28:16] Who are you connected with? How are you taking care of yourself? who do you have to talk about some of these things? I have a friend who very much knows what's going on in, in the world, and there's permission for me to ask questions and learn, and there's also permission to say, "Okay, I can't handle anymore, because I'm starting to get stressed."

[00:28:40] And so, finding somebody like that, that you're able to do that, I... And it's hard, and it sucks, and just acknowledging that it's hard and it sucks, and we'll get through this in some way or another. I know we haven't gone through exactly the same thing before, but there are similarities.

[00:29:08] And we can get through that. And just thinking, a lot of times when I sit with clients, they're like, "Well," they're... I work with a lot of trauma, and they'll be like, "Well, my trauma isn't as bad as somebody else's trauma." But it's hard for where your life is at right now. So, if you can handle no news or you can handle all the news, but it's overwhelming at whatever piece you absorb, that's your level of tolerance and where you need to get out and get some support.

[00:29:39] Be knowledgeable, but don't get overwhelmed, with it as well. 

[00:29:45] Marshall Stern: I agree. That's good. I like that. I would also, I would also add to that, if you're overwhelmed by all the news, all that garbage out there in the world, and all the social media stuff, because there's a bunch of garbage there too, I'm all for it, man.

[00:29:57] Get on your couch, turn on the Netflix or whatever it is... Apple TV for, I think, Ted Lasso, Netflix for, like, Shrinking. I think Shrinking is Netflix, or is that Apple? Whatever it is, I don't care. 

[00:30:07] Lisa Catallo: I can't remember. 

[00:30:07] Marshall Stern: Again, whatever. Watch those shows. Just watch them. Right? Seriously, like, there's nothing wrong with it.

[00:30:14] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. We're watching Survivor. That's my escape right now.

[00:30:16] Marshall Stern: We're... Okay. You, you can do Survivor. You can do Survivor. That's a good question. Start asking my guests what that question, "What's your, what's your go-to sort of unwind, unplug show?" 

[00:30:26] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. That was one of my questions in our interview process, just to throw something a little off.

[00:30:31] I like that. If you were going to be on Survivor or Amazing Race, how far would you get, kind of thing, so yeah. 

[00:30:38] Marshall Stern: You don't... Do you, do you, do you ask, "Would you backstab someone to win?" 

[00:30:41] Lisa Catallo: Well, it... I got some very interesting answers to that question of how they would win. 

[00:30:48] Marshall Stern: Okay. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. 

[00:30:51] I know Lee, Lee I... I think it was Lee Iacocca used to... I don't know if you ever heard this story. When he was, when he was interviewing senior executives, right? C-suite. He would take them out for lunch, and he would ahead of time plan and then have the waiter screw up their...

[00:31:08] Or was it - yeah, it was Lee Iacocca. Screw up their meals, and he wanted to see how they reacted to the server, and if they were like, "Oh, it's okay," blah, blah, blah. So there had to be a fine line. If they were aggressive and like, "You're an idiot," or whatever, they're out. If they were like sort of once, like just, "Oh, it's okay," and just taking it, they're out.

[00:31:28] They have to be, right, do it the right way. 

[00:31:32] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:31:32] Marshall Stern: So, I think that was Lee Iacocca. There was another one, I can't remember who it was, I might be getting them confused, would have the watch... Maybe that's Henry Ford. I don't know. It was one of them. And Lee Iacocca, maybe it was Lee Iacocca, the salt, the salt shaker.

[00:31:47] If you taste, if you put the salt on your food before testing it, you're out. 

[00:31:51] Lisa Catallo: Oh, really?

[00:31:52] Marshall Stern: Cause you're just a creature of habit. 

[00:31:54] Lisa Catallo: Ah. 

[00:31:56] Marshall Stern: And so, he was looking at these little things. I'm sure our listeners just got a lot out of the – just that insight there. Okay. Before we go, before we go, because I know I blew them away with that one, so it's your turn.

[00:32:07] So, I know you, like me, dig into leadership. Your podcast, what's your podcast called? 

[00:32:12] Lisa Catallo: Empowered to Lead. 

[00:32:13] Marshall Stern: Empowered to Lead. And where can they find that? 

[00:32:17] Lisa Catallo: That is on Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcasts. 

[00:32:22] Marshall Stern: Okay. I'm going to put that stuff, all your contact info, in the show notes. Okay.

[00:32:25] Even if you're... Honestly, even... Gang, I'm talking to you guys, gals, people, even if you're not a group practice owner or a therapist or a counselor, okay, check out the podcast because the conversations are real. What episode's mine? That one is a must-listen to. 

[00:32:43] Lisa Catallo: You are in the fall. 

[00:32:44] Marshall Stern: Yeah. I'm kidding. I'm, I'm kidding.

[00:32:46] They're all good. But they, but it is all really centered around what Lisa and I are very passionate about and, and that is building businesses through really leading from the inside out- 

[00:32:54] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:32:56] Marshall Stern: …and developing people and the systems and overcoming imposter syndrome. And imposter syndrome, are you, are you over it?

[00:33:03] I'm going to ask you the question. Then you can ask it back. Let's ask-

[00:33:05] Lisa Catallo: Well, you saw my reel last week. I sat with imposter syndrome last week. No. No, I am not over it. 

[00:33:14] Marshall Stern: It is a work in progress. We all get through it. We all get through that. And I always say with imposter syndrome, if it is rearing its ugly head, it doesn't, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

[00:33:24] Actually- 

[00:33:25] Lisa Catallo: You're trying something new. 

[00:33:26] Marshall Stern: Yeah. You're actually trying something new. You're stepping out of your comfort zone, and it's real. 

[00:33:32] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:33:32] Marshall Stern: So, don't let it stop you. Okay. I haven't even gotten to my questions. What is one golden nugget you... Actually, forget the golden nugget, because this is going to be a golden nugget.

[00:33:45] Lisa Catallo: Okay. 

[00:33:45] Marshall Stern:10, 10 years in... You know, how many years in business? 

[00:33:49] Lisa Catallo: About 10, yeah. 

[00:33:50] Marshall Stern: About, about 10. If you could go back, younger Lisa, okay? Before you started or when you started to now, what would you tell yourself knowing then what you know now? What would you - what, yeah, what would you tell yourself? What kind of golden nugget would you tell yourself?

[00:34:08] Lisa Catallo: You did not give me this question beforehand. Give me a sec. I would tell her it's, it's going to be a bumpy ride. It's not, it's not just all going to be fun and games, but it is totally worth it. It's been one... a bunch of the hardest things that I've gone through, and some of the most fun and fulfilling moments as well.

[00:34:31] I have grown so much. when I started my training as a therapist, everybody's like, "Oh, in your first year you really, like, get to know yourself, get ready to do the work." I'm like, "I'm 48 years old," right? Like, I know myself. Oh, no.  I also don't want to stop being a student of myself and, and just learning, and being a small business owner makes you face some of the things about yourself, some of your insecurities, some of your strengths.

[00:35:04] And if you're willing to let that grow you, it can, it can be an amazing adventure, even when you downsize or do something opposite of what you thought success was when you started off. but in the long run, I think it's worth it. 

[00:35:22] Marshall Stern: Gang, that's it. That's, that's the, the golden nugget right there. It's going to be a bumpy road.

[00:35:27] You know, and it's interesting, before we sign off, I've noticed the last couple years, I know the economy, whatever, not so great for a lot of people. For some people, it's amazing. Okay? and there are a lot of people who started their business during the pandemic, because of the pandemic, because they were out of a job, or they had a come to Jesus moment, "I can't work for another company anymore," "Life is more important," you know, I...

[00:35:52] Whatever. So, they started... They're a marketer, and they start a marketing agency. They're a therapist, they start up their, their own practice. Coach, or not a coach, but they're doing something in a company, and they, "I'm going to go become a coach." And a coach, that's skill. Bookkeeper, start my own bookkeeping company.

[00:36:07] And they don't know, if they're not- if they don't come from an entrepreneurial background or entrepreneurial family, they don't have entrepreneurs in their, in their world, and they don't know it's going to be a bumpy road. So, I love that, but it's what you follow it up with. It's going to be a bumpy road, and it's...

[00:36:23] I don't have the words exactly how you, how you said it, but it's going to be fulfilling, it's going to be fun, and that's the whole thing. Like, I hate roller coasters, but the entrepreneurial roller coaster analogy is true. 

[00:36:38] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:36:38] Marshall Stern: And it is going to be up and down at times, and the problem... not the problem. The thing is, when it's up- 

[00:36:46] Lisa Catallo: It's like a runner's high. 

[00:36:48] Marshall Stern: It, it's... And when it's down, when you're- 

[00:36:50] Lisa Catallo: Yeah... 

[00:36:50] Marshall Stern: Going down the drop, the drop, it can feel like it's never going to go up again. 

[00:36:54] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:36:55] Marshall Stern: So, what do you do if you're on that sort of downward trajectory, you're going down to this, the abyss of the rollercoaster, the entrepreneur, entrepreneurial journey?

[00:37:05] It's easy for you to say. What would be one gold nugget you would share? What would help you get out of that? 

[00:37:10] Lisa Catallo: I can't do that in isolation. So, I reached out to you as a coach. I got supervision, I got therapy, I secured friendships. and so that is huge for me, like, find people to hold you up when you are down in the depths of that.

[00:37:33] I love roller coasters, but there's, some of those rides that it's just like, "Okay, it's time for it to stop." And so, when people are there holding you up, it doesn't... It still sucks, but it doesn't feel like it's going to be forever. 

[00:37:47] Marshall Stern: And you're not alone. 

[00:37:48] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:37:49] Marshall Stern: So, I'm going to give a plug for both of us and both of our programs.

[00:37:53] Lisa Catallo: Okay. 

[00:37:53] Marshall Stern: So, if you... Obviously, like, my information, you guys are, know is down there. Lisa's information is down there. If you're a group practice owner or, or a want to, be group practice owner, you're thinking about it, right? Reach out to her. She's got a, an amazing group program. She's got some other exciting things coming up.

[00:38:07] She has that podcast, which is phenomenal. Okay? She has her, her own inner circle, which you should join, so you can be around like-minded people. You can also- 

[00:38:16] Lisa Catallo: Group Practice Connection. 

[00:38:17] Marshall Stern: Group Practice Connection, which is amazing. And I've been it. I've been in it. I've been a, I don't know what you want to call me.

[00:38:23] Guest teacher, faculty teacher. I don't know what- 

[00:38:25] Lisa Catallo: You didn't like the title I gave you. 

[00:38:28] Marshall Stern: Yeah, I don't remember what the title was, but- 

[00:38:30] Lisa Catallo: Okay. 

[00:38:30] Marshall Stern: Okay. I want director of whatever. What was I talking about? Me. Oh, and then me. If you're not in that world and you're in a different world of entrepreneurship, just come to Inner, the Inner – ON, ON...

[00:38:43] I can't even speak today, Lisa. The ONtrepreneur Inner Circle, and that's O-N. It's a funny story before we go. So, we meet Tuesdays, right? So, this whole time change thing is going to screw people up. You hear, right? Like- 

[00:38:56] Lisa Catallo: Yep. 

[00:38:57] Marshall Stern: So, we meet Tuesdays 11:00 AM Pacific Time. I have some people in there from Eastern Canada.

[00:39:03] So right now, it's 2:00 PM, but in the, in November, it's going to be 1:00 PM. Like, it's confusing. But it's a good thing for us. It's called the ONtrepreneur Inner Circle, big O-N. Someone the other day in, in the group, she was, Kim was the guest, and she said, "I'm just curious. You have people here from BC.

[00:39:21] I'm from Ontario. I thought this was the Ontario Inner Circle, ONtrepreneur Inner Circle." 

[00:39:25] Lisa Catallo: O-N? 

[00:39:25] Marshall Stern: Yeah. So, so the ONtrepreneur Inner Circle is not for Ontario only. It's for BC. It's for throughout Canada, throughout the United States, throughout the world, and it's to work on your business, not just in it. 

[00:39:35] So but you're surrounded, like Lisa in her Group Practice Connection, you're surrounded like-minded, around like-minded people, and you're getting support.

[00:39:44] So that's for all of you out there to reach out to us, and, or reach out to your people if we're not your people. But if you're still listening after, what, we're almost an hour, then you're still with us. Okay. 

[00:39:54] Lisa Catallo: Thank you. 

[00:39:54] Marshall Stern: I think that's it. I, I thank you. And gang, get out there. Five stars. I really encourage you.

[00:40:01] In fact, it's an ask. Five-star review so people can find this episode, and they are going to grow from it because Lisa's, I've known her for eight months now, nine months, 10 months, whatever. the, the insights I've received from working with her, even though I'm coaching her, what I've gotten back from you, Lisa, and how I've grown, I want to thank you, okay?

[00:40:25] Lisa Catallo: Thank you. 

[00:40:26] Marshall Stern: So, I want to hear some insights from all of you from what you heard today. Downsizing, pivoting, which something that you might think might be going against everything society's telling you, because we're all talking about scaling, growing, blah, blah, blah, all this kind of stuff. 10X your business. I can help you 10X your business.

[00:40:45] It might be the right time for you to make a shift, right? It's like that old poker saying with the old... Sorry, the Kenny, I, I was going to say Kenny Loggins. Kenny Rogers song. You got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. Know when to walk away and know when... Should I start singing? No, maybe not.

[00:41:03] I don't want to lose my audience. And I did something similar, right? And I don't think I ever-maybe I did tell you. So, I had, I had a sign company, and then we're going to go. I promise everyone we'll go. I had a sign company back in '94. I started it '95, '96, '97. I had a competitor who was very close to me, and we decided to merge our businesses, become partners, and we had both locations running for a bit, not long, and then we decided to downsize, right?

[00:41:35] Because it made financial sense. It made energy sense. We could focus everything on the one location and growing that rather than spreading ourselves thin, and it was the best thing ever we ever did. 

[00:41:46] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. 

[00:41:46] Marshall Stern: And we grew our bus- our business separately, the revenue separately. Everyone thought, was it going to just take a hit?

[00:41:54] We actually grew the revenue- 

[00:41:55] Lisa Catallo: Mm. 

[00:41:56] Marshall Stern: …when we came together and closed the one location because all of our energy was focused on that place. 

[00:42:01] Lisa Catallo: Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. 

[00:42:04] Marshall Stern: So good for you for doing that. 

[00:42:06] Lisa Catallo: Thanks. 

[00:42:07] Marshall Stern: Have a great rest of your day. Thank you, Lisa, for coming. We're going to have to check in with you and have you back for sure if you will have us.

[00:42:14] And until we meet again, everyone, next week on another episode of The Stern Truth Business Unfiltered, have an amazing week. Bye for now.

[00:42:26] Thank you so much for tuning in to the Stern Truth. If you found today's episode helpful, we would love to hear from you. Please like, share, and leave us a review. Also, if you'd like to be a guest in an upcoming episode or join us in one of our Momentum accountability group sessions, simply email me to marshall@marshallstern.net. 

[00:42:47] That's marshall@marshallstern.net. And don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep pushing forward and leading with confidence.