Ep. 77 The Stern Truth: The Power of Deeper Questions With Karli Grove

Business can be deep, and Karli Grove is here to prove it. 

For episode 77, I have Karli Grove of Kantency Consulting as my guest. Katency is a consulting firm that focuses on organizational change. As Karli puts it, 180 changes are hard, but they don’t have to be.

Her advice is to find the source resistance in your business and change it. This can require reading between the lines (because not all resistance points are obvious) and even some negotiations. 

I pose a loaded question to Karli during this episode: what do you think is missing in business? She comes back with a loaded answer too: empathy. Karli believes in the power of asking questions and truly getting curious to get to that “secret sauce.” Not everything has to be so black and white, and questions get deeper.

Our conversation reminded me of something my own mentor said: “Be interested, not interesting.” Get interested in others. Be curious and ask those questions to get to know them on a deeper level. 

Karli gets real with us and tells us how accountability as an entrepreneur is one of her biggest challenges. Giving herself her own consequences is something she admits was difficult for her. She says what helped her was setting up systems and gives an amazing example with how she reads 50 books every year, while travelling! 

Her golden nugget is that body language is extremely important when it comes to communication. You’re only getting a certain amount of the context with text or voice memos - she gives some great statistics on the episode that are fascinating, so don’t miss out!

Get in touch with Karli here:

Website: kantency.com
LinkedIn: @karligrove 

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Transcript

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[00:00:00] Marshall Stern: Hi, I'm Marshall Stern and I've spent over 35 years leading and growing multiple small businesses. I know firsthand the struggles of entrepreneurship, feeling isolated, lonely, overwhelmed, and feeling like you have to do it all by yourself. I've been through multiple recessions, and I have felt the highs and the lows.

[00:00:24] I've been there, and I get it. This podcast is here to change that. Every week I will bring you straight talking advice, real world strategies, and honest conversations about what it takes to succeed in business without the fluff, the gimmicks, or the sugar-coated. If you're ready to stop spinning your wheels and start making real progress, then you are in the right place.

[00:00:47] This is The Stern Truth. 

[00:00:52] Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of The Stern Truth  Business Unfiltered. And to my, well, right or left is my amazing guest this week, which you're going to get to know, Karli Grove. Welcome to The Stern Truth. 

[00:01:05] Karli Grove: Oh, thank you. Such a pleasure. 

[00:01:07] Marshall Stern: Pleasure's all mine. Thank, thanks for coming.

[00:01:09] We'll see you guys next week. 

[00:01:11] Karli Grove: Oh, it was a far travel. Well, thanks, thanks for the venture.

[00:01:15] Marshall Stern: Yes. 

[00:01:15] Karli Grove: Good times. 

[00:01:15] Marshall Stern:  okay. Tell us a little bit about who you... I want to talk about how, like, how I got to know you, but first I want to know a little bit about you, have our listeners get to know the amazing Karli. What do you do?

[00:01:28] Who are you? 

[00:01:29] Karli Grove: Oh, that is a big bucket of worms. Which, which avenue do we want to go down? Do we want to go down kind of hobbies, interests, fascinations? Do we want to go down kind of history path? Do we want to go... Where do we want to go? 

[00:01:41] Marshall Stern: Let's start with business. 

[00:01:43] Karli Grove: Okay. 

[00:01:43] Marshall Stern: How – what's your business, and how long have you been in it?

[00:01:47] Karli Grove: My business is called Kantency Consulting, and it's organizational change. And we've been up and running for about a year and a half. 

[00:01:56] Marshall Stern: Okay. What got you into... What were you doing before that? Start there.

[00:02:00] Karli Grove: I was traveling right before this. 

[00:02:03] Marshall Stern: Nice. Okay. So, you're traveling, okay. 

[00:02:06] Karli Grove: Yep. 

[00:02:07] Marshall Stern: What got you into... Did you always want to be a business owner?

[00:02:10] Karli Grove: No, no. I didn't really know much about the world of business. So, I come from a small town, and even the concept of business owner, city, corporate versus small town, the just perception of it's very different. People in a small town don't call themselves entrepreneurs. They're just, I guess they just are business owners.

[00:02:29] But they're not even business owners. I don't even know what they, what we call them. They're just part of the community, I suppose. The question was, how did I kind of get into it? 

[00:02:40] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:02:40] Karli Grove: Cool, just making sure. I got distracted by the, by the term. How I kind of got into it. Did I always want to be a business owner?

[00:02:46] Not really, but I kind of knew for a number of years, since kind of in the middle of university, that this was going to be eventually the trajectory that I went down, that I was going to take on some sort of consultant role in this type of sphere. I didn't know exactly what it looked like, but I, I had a couple of experiences where I went, "Ooh, there's a need here."

[00:03:05] And I actually can help with this niche." So, the idea was planted in university, but I knew that I wouldn't be taken seriously without life experience. So, I moved home, worked a nine-to-five job, worked four other hats at the same time in the pursuit of kind of getting all these different skill sets and whatnot, and that kind of came to an end, and life ended up taking me abroad.

[00:03:30] Ended up living in New Zealand for a year. And then I backpacked Southeast Asia for about half a year, then came home to start a business, mainly because I, I love traveling. I absolutely fell in love with traveling, and I figured in my head the, the most logical way to travel sustainably is to come home and start a business, right?

[00:03:48] That, that's how you get freedom to travel, right? So, business wasn't always on the docket, but, the general idea of this venture. 

[00:03:56] Marshall Stern: Okay. So, yeah, I mean, most of us start a business, yeah, exactly, for, for that freedom. The time freedom and the money freedom. 

[00:04:03] Karli Grove: Yes. 

[00:04:04] Marshall Stern: We all know what ends up happening a lot of the time.

[00:04:07] Karli Grove: Yeah. It, it takes a lot longer than you think. 

[00:04:11] Marshall Stern: So, on that front, I'm curious, So, you said about a year and a half you've had this? 

[00:04:16] Karli Grove: Yeah. 

[00:04:17] Marshall Stern: Okay. So, specifically, okay, consulting. So, who do you... Before I get into the other question, who do you consult? 

[00:04:23] Karli Grove: Right now it's organizations. So, slightly medium-ish size organizations, even though everyone has a different definition of what quantity constitutes sizes.

[00:04:34] But pretty much as soon as a business gets to 10, 15-plus employees is where I start to come in. So, my approach to organizational change is the big-picture mapping of change. I don't like the 180 flip kind of changes. I think that they are an attempt to solve a root problem, but they're doing it the wrong…

[00:04:54] Not necessarily the wrong way, but a really hard way. 180 changes are really hard, and they don't have to be. So, my approach to the big-picture change is to map it out but then find where that core source of resistance is coming from, because there's a need for a change. There's a need, there's a reason that organizations feel change is needed, but they are operating from their own confines of what they think is realistic or applicable or – 

[00:05:18] So, whatever they see in front of them. And so, I kind of come in and I help find where that source is coming from and try and find a solution that actually can more aligned fit within them. That it, it's not as hard, it's more aligned, it maybe is more cost-effective, it's more aligned in terms of branding or purpose or skill sets or environment,  niche, all those kind of things, rather than doing the 180 change and crossing fingers.

[00:05:44] So, I like to come in with organizations so that they don't have to do the 180 changes. They can just do – they, we can dive deep to find where the source of resistance is coming from and then make tweaks that actually fit them. Especially – I don't, I don't like when people do cookie cutter, copy and paste.

[00:06:00] This is what the other company in this industry is doing, So, we're going to copy them and do it too. Weird, why isn't it working for us? Because it works for them. It doesn't work for you. But can we dive a little deeper and figure out where the – why, why do you think you need that, and how can we adapt it to you?

[00:06:14] Marshall Stern: So, I guess the question – I want to go deeper on that for a second here. I work primarily with small business owners, coaching and mentoring them. You're working with larger companies, different layers, at least C-suite. There's a big difference, not only in the mindset and obviously the organization, the, the organizational chart, because a lot of people I work with, they are the chart.

[00:06:36] Or they have a small, small team. But when it comes to organizational change, people I'm working with, they're the ones, like, they change, right? If they have employees, it's usually a –  usually, usually a small team. But the people you're working with, if they're coming to you, how do you... I know this is probably a loaded question too, but how do you get to organizational change when the person who comes to you might want it, but everybody else doesn't?

[00:07:03] The – like you're talking about, I think you used the word, like, the resistance. How do you get through – how do you, how do you navigate that with your clients? 

[00:07:11] Karli Grove: So, it depends on kind of what my role is with it, if I'm kind of going in the organization on their behalf, or if I'm kind of giving them guidance on how to navigate within their own organization.

[00:07:22] If I were to go into the organization, I – what I do is you kind of just talk to people. Actually, have you ever seen the TV show Undercover Boss? 

[00:07:30] Marshall Stern: Yeah, love it. 

[00:07:31] Karli Grove: So, it's kind of like Undercover Boss, where I kind of go in and I firsthand go and witness what's happening between the lines that people aren't saying.

[00:07:41] So, people might – the boss, the head honchos, they want change. The staff do not. But what do they see that maybe the head honcho doesn't? What do – what are they afraid of that they just don't know how to communicate to the – it's a, it's a, almost a giant negotiation of trying to find what are the underlying sources, motivations.

[00:08:03] And is there a way that we can satisfy what changes the – I'm going to keep saying head honcho – what's the changes that they want, and is there a way we can happy medium with the other people rather than bulldozing over and saying, "Nope, we're doing 180 change. Suck it up." 

[00:08:17] Marshall Stern: Right. 

[00:08:18] Karli Grove: So, it, it's a lot of communication. It's a lot of reading between the lines, layers. 

[00:08:23] Marshall Stern: Let's, let's talk certain truth here. Karli, if I can call you Karli, Undercover Boss, you brought up. 

[00:08:29] Karli Grove: Yes. 

[00:08:29] Marshall Stern: Okay. So, do, do employees cry at the end of you working with them? Vecause they're always crying on the Undercover Boss because the boss is giving them, the head honcho's giving them, like, paying their education, paying for their kids' education, buying them, like, a down payment on a house.

[00:08:45] You don't have to really answer that because that was sort of, you know. 

[00:08:48] Marshall Stern: But I do love the show, and I know what you’re saying, yeah.  

[00:08:51] Karli Grove: It's been a long time. Ideal- well, ideally, they wouldn't cry like that, but there'd ideally be more laughter because there wouldn't be as much tension, as much stress, as much of that resistance.

[00:09:01] There'd be more laughter, maybe more brainstorming, because they're, they have the mental capacity within an organization to. – they've, they've got the freedom to be creative in the capacity that they were hired. But then also, they can go home and they don't have to stress about work or there's just more laughter.

[00:09:19] Marshall Stern: What do you think is missing? What do you think organizations, small business, medium-sized business, large business, what do you think is missing out there? I know that's a, again, a loaded question. It's a big question. But what do you, from your experience, or what do you think they're missing? 

[00:09:33] Karli Grove: We're getting better at empathy is the word that comes top of mind, but I don't necessarily mean empathy in the way that people default think of it. When I say empathy, I mean, mainly asking questions. Curiosity is kind of sometimes needed a lot more, especially in businesses. Everything  seems to be very black and white, high stakes, do or die.

[00:09:57] And it seems as though questions can be perceived as a delay, a distraction, a waste of time. But questions are actually kind of what uncover the secret sauce. 

[00:10:11] Karli Grove: I even – you've probably heard this Henry Ford quote, and a friend and I were talking about it earlier today, So, it's also top of mind.

[00:10:18]  Henry Ford has a quote and it says, "If I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have told me faster horses." because what Henry Ford was able to do, and people like him under this metaphor, is they ask questions. "Well, what is it that you want? Okay, you want faster horses." And if people just stop there, we wouldn't have vehicles today, but Henry Ford was able to kind of ask questions and be a bit more curious to go, "What is it about faster horses?"

[00:10:43] Marshall Stern: Right. 

[00:10:43] Karli Grove: Okay, you want to go see your family. Okay, but what about seeing your family is actually more – okay, you, you want to save time. So, if I can find another way to save time to get you from point A to point B, would that work? So, he, he used curiosity and questions to kind of get to the solution, which a lot of businesses seem to bypass, or they ask two questions and call it good and then they move on, because the next fire's come up and they have to go put out that fire.

[00:11:08] Marshall Stern: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. It's like that – I'm a Ted Lasso fan. I don't know if you've watched Ted Lasso. 

[00:11:15] Karli Grove: Not in completion, no. I've seen little clips online, but- 

[00:11:17] Marshall Stern: Yeah, and it's probably one of them. It's, it's where he quotes Walt Whitman. He said, "Be curious" because he was, he was, I guess, in the thing, in the show or whatever, he said he was, like, picked on and people didn't understand him and-

[00:11:29] Karli Grove: Was this the dart scene? 

[00:11:31] Marshall Stern: No, no. That's barbecue sauce. Okay. That, that's one of my favorite scenes. 

[00:11:34] Karli Grove: Oh yeah. 

[00:11:34] Marshall Stern: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took me a second. Barbecue –  oh, yeah, yeah, get a bullseye. Okay. No, be, just be curious, right? And that's, like, as a coach, that's what I'm supposed to be as well, right? Be curious. 

[00:11:46] I would say, like, and I learned this from one of my coaches, like, be interested, not interesting, right? And be curious. So, organizations big and small need to be more curious. 

[00:11:59] Karli Grove: And we're getting better at it. We're getting more and more human-centric, which means that curiosity naturally has to come suit.

[00:12:06] Marshall Stern: Mmm.... 

[00:12:06] Karli Grove: Sometimes I worry that- 

[00:12:07] Marshall Stern: Are we? Are we, or are we putting it into –  are we put into AI, into ChatGPT? 

[00:12:11] Karli Grove: That's, that's where my thought process is also going. I don't need to ask them what they think. I'm just going to ask ChatGPT what they think. What they might be thinking. 

[00:12:20] Marshall Stern: So, okay, what has been one of your biggest challenges, I would say, or, it might not be a challenge now, but entrepreneurship, totally different from whatever you were doing before, the jobs you had and the hats you were wearing before.

[00:12:33] And the traveling. What has been the biggest challenge that maybe you really didn't even think about? I mean, we don't know until we do it. But what, what would be one of the biggest challenges you've been through as a business owner? 

[00:12:43] Karli Grove: In terms of kind of going from the previous life to this life? 

[00:12:46] Marshall Stern: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:47] Karli Grove: The biggest challenge would be, and I, I'm sure lots of business owners have this, it's the, lack of a better phrase, self-accountability. When I – when you work for a company as an employee, there's tasks that get put on your plate, and there's deadlines that are put on your plate, and I am excellent at addressing tasks put on my plate and meeting the deadlines put on my plate.

[00:13:09] I loved school for that very reason, because I knew what was expected of me, what to do, how to do it, and when it was needed to be done by. It was great. As a business owner, you not only – you have to create your own tasks, you have to determine what's important, and then you have to put the tasks on your plate, and then you have to set your own deadline.

[00:13:24] And then you have to determine, right, that is a firm deadline with consequences, but then your brain tells you that, actually, that's not a real consequence. You just kind of determine that date, but we can actually push it two days. It's not actually that important. And so, probably that kind of, yeah, however we want to call that.

[00:13:42] Going from someone putting tasks on your plate to putting tasks on your own plate. 

[00:13:46] Marshall Stern: Yeah, it's, it's the accountability. Accountability for your own stuff, right? And I hear this all the time, and in fact, I just had a conversation earlier with one of my clients. It was the same thing, right?

[00:13:56] Because I'm going to assume, Karli, that you don't have a problem being accountable to your clients, because someone's expecting something. 

[00:14:05] Karli Grove: Yep. 

[00:14:06] Marshall Stern: Right? There's someone else. Me as, same thing with me. And even as a parent, like, if I had to pick up my kids when they were younger, first of all, I have, what do they call it?

[00:14:16] I have late anxiety. I cannot be late, okay? I have to be on time, or early. Right. I hate, I hate it. So, if I'm in traffic – I mean, I remember one time I was late to take my son, this wasn't even picking him up, late to take him to baseball practice. Yeah, I turned I- I turned into, like, the Incredible Hulk.

[00:14:33] Like, it was bad. Like, I was, the traffic, like I just don't, don't like traffic.  anyways, that's a whole other, that's for another episode. But if I had to pick up my kids from school, I wasn't going to miss that, because they were expecting and waiting. There was accountability there. But when it’s for our own stuff, right?

[00:14:50] Like going to the gym or even doing business development, lead generation, working our own – it’s, ahhh. 

[00:15:00] Karli Grove: Once I have a structure, I'm pretty good at sticking with it, but it's a matter of setting up that structure. Even in a non-business sense,  for not this, not 2025, but '23 and '24, I read about 50 books each year.

[00:15:15] Marshall Stern: Wow. 

[00:15:16] Karli Grove: And I – it was awesome. I loved reading books, and some people are like, How did you read so many books, especially when you were traveling? Well, I had a library membership. I had multiple library memberships, and they got pushed onto my Kobo. Well, when you borrow a book from the library, first of all, when it's available is when it's available.

[00:15:33] If it's not, if you can't read it right now, you might have to wait another four months sometimes to read it. Oh, I accidentally put the hand up. There we go. So, it's kind of you have to read it now, and then when you borrow it now, you only have three weeks to read it. 

[00:15:48] Marshall Stern: Right. 

[00:15:48] Karli Grove: There's consequences..

[00:15:49] So, I was really good at reading books because a book would come up, and I'd go, Ooh, yes, I want to read this now, and it has to be read in the next three weeks or else. So, that was really good motivation of kind of creating systems of consequence. Even, like, going to the gym. There was a gym in New Zealand where –

[00:16:07] And it sounds bad, but if for me going to the gym, I also, like to make a presence, kind of have an accountability buddy of sorts, even if it's unofficial. There's this one gym in New Zealand that I went to, and it was on my way to work, and I went five days a week. Five days a week, Monday to Friday, I was there at the 6:00 class.

[00:16:23] And in my head, no one expected me to be there every day, but in my head I'm like, I am a consistent for people. They are expecting me to be here five days a week every day, and if I don't do that, then they'll miss me. So, that was a weird kind of consequence I set up for myself, but I definitely, I enjoy setting up structures of consequence, like ones that other people will, quote, unquote, 'impose onto me,' right?

[00:16:47] Book gets taken away, people will miss me, da, da, da. 

[00:16:50] Marshall Stern: Well, and, and, and that's why – so, a quick background, and that's we met in, I guess, in, shout-out to Kelly Kennedy, the Catalyst Club, in his group, a part of it is, I mean, there's an accountability aspect to it if you allow it to be. It's not forced upon you.

[00:17:06] But I give an example. Yesterday, right, I was in doing that workshop that you were in, in the group, and the training and on the ONtrepreneur Method, and we talked about. And you brought it up, the, the – because we're talking about the word of the year and all that kind of stuff, and I talked about how it's...

[00:17:21] When I say it's being comfortable being uncomfortable for me, and you said, I have a word for you: ice baths. So, the reason I say that, I bring it up for, for our listeners, I, I had mentioned this in yesterday in our session, right? The gym I go to, I, I go, I go to work out, to the gym, and then I go to the pool after, and they have –

[00:17:41] It's not an ice bath per se, but it's a cold plunge, and I've been in it a couple times, but it's freaking cold. And because of our conversation yesterday, I said, If my word for, if my word for the year is ice baths or my whole motto for the year is being comfortable being uncomfortable, I'm going to do it.

[00:17:59] So, I told you just before I got on, you know, I went a little late yesterday. I was a little tired, and I didn't want to do it, and I do like to go in the hot tub. That's relaxing. But then I thought, Okay, I told Karli I was going to do it. 

[00:18:12] Karli Grove: And you knew that you were going to be talking to me today.

[00:18:13] Marshall Stern: And I knew I was going to be talking to you today.

[00:18:15] See, if I didn't know I was going to be talking to you, then I'd play games, you know, mind games. But although I am committed to being uncomfortable, comfortable being uncomfortable. But it helped that, yes, we were going to talk today. And, and I knew you would probably ask me, Did you do it? And if – I could have said yes if I didn't, but what's the point of that?

[00:18:32] That's fooling myself. I, it – I'm the, I'm the one losing out. 

[00:18:36] Karli Grove: Yeah. Right? You're the one all day has to go to sleep knowing you didn't do it, go, wake up, go through your day, be like, Oh no, I'm going to be talking to Karli and oh. 

[00:18:44] Marshall Stern: Yep, yep. Exactly. Yep. So, okay. What would be - for our listeners, for our listeners, what would be, let's say, one...

[00:18:52] I love golden nuggets. My late father used to say, If you could just take a – back then there was no, like, internet or not even DVDs or CDs or anything. If you take one course or go to a speaker or seminar and get one golden nugget- 

[00:19:05] Karli Grove: As in? 

[00:19:06] Marshall Stern: For business people who are in their business, just as a business owner.

[00:19:11] I'll let you go anywhere with it, but what would be one golden nugget that you would just want to impart with them, like, Do this? 

[00:19:19] Karli Grove: As in kind of a specific reminder, or as in kind of a type of course skill set to build? 

[00:19:25] Marshall Stern: It could be a skill set to build, but if people are in their business and they're not sure of the next step, they're not sure…

[00:19:31] Okay, here, here it is. Here's the thing. The economy, okay? Economy, whatever, whatever. But it's still economy's up and down and who knows this, and tariffs and all this kind of stuff. They're not sure what to do, when to invest in this, when to invest in a coach or a marketing strategist or a consultant, when to bring on staff.

[00:19:49] They're just not sure. What would – I know it's a very open question. I just like to ask open questions. 

[00:19:55] Karli Grove: That's fair. I might have, I might have one, and it's by no means the best nugget. We'll call it a bronze nugget rather than a gold nugget maybe.

[00:20:04] Marshall Stern: Oh, we'll, we'll determine that. Let's see. We'll see.

[00:20:07] Karli Grove: A lot of elements of Kantency, they always circle back to communication.

[00:20:14] My friends jokingly call me the queen of communication, but I still have work to do, but I like to think I'm pretty good at it. Active listening, asking questions, all those kind of things, leading with curiosity. But one thing that I like to tell people about communication is a statistic about it That kind of helps bring things into perspective about where our communication comes from, where it's received, all those kind of things.

[00:20:39] And it's a current statistic. I hope that it's going to evolve in the future, so, because I think there's elements that are missing. Anyways, when you are talking to somebody and there's a conversation, only 7% of that is words – so, when you're texting somebody with words, you're only communicating 7% of the message you're trying to convey.

[00:20:59] The other elements of the statistic, tone of voice is the next one, and tone of voice makes up 38% of the message we're trying to communicate. So, you get on the phone with somebody, now you've got a collective 45% of what you're trying to communicate. Phone calls are way better in that reason than text messages.

[00:21:16] Marshall Stern: Hmm. 

[00:21:17] Karli Grove: Voice memos are way better than text messages because you're now conveying an additional 38% for tone of voice. 

[00:21:23] Marshall Stern: Okay. 

[00:21:23] Karli Grove: The remaining 55% is body language, which is huge. So, even though you're on the phone with somebody, you're still missing information. 

[00:21:32] Marshall Stern: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:21:32] Karli Grove: Which you can even imagine, as a kid, we're all on the phone talking to our high school crush, and we're walking around the house.

[00:21:39] We're pacing. Our body is kind of fidgeting with things. We're reacting to things. You make a comment, and my face goes, What? 

[00:21:47] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:21:47] Karli Grove: But all you hear is what. You don't see the face. That what could be, "What? What? What?" Like, it could be all sorts of things, but the, because you don't have the body language, it's not conveyed.

[00:21:58] Body language is huge. So, when you're having a conversation with someone, when you're trying to be curious about someone, probably try and do it in person. Now, the reason why I say I hope this statistic evolves, you and I in theory right now are face-to-face. 

[00:22:11] Marshall Stern: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:12] Karli Grove: According to the statistic, we should be communicating 100%, but we're not.

[00:22:16] Because I can't see your nostril twitch. I can't see your leg going up and down. I can't see the change in your breathing. I can't... Like, there's just all these in-person elements that also, consist of a whole bunch of different elements. So, even though we are body language face-to-face, that's technically currently makes up 100%, hopefully it's going to evolve to incorporate an in-person element too. But, right, yeah.

[00:22:41] Marshall Stern: Okay. So, that's fascinating, actually. 

[00:22:44] Karli Grove: Okay. 

[00:22:44] Marshall Stern: I'm going to say, I'm going to, I'm going to give it a gold. I'm going to give it a gold. Okay. 

[00:22:48] Karli Grove: Okay, great. 

[00:22:49] Marshall Stern: Okay. Well, it, it, because it, it – okay, I'm sure people are, like, thinking about this, but I – when you said, when you started to say the first part, the 7% words, okay, that's initially everyone's all about social media, right?

[00:23:03] Karli Grove: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:03] Marshall Stern: And forget about the video part, like static posts or email, like newsletters and emails, or pro- coaching programs or consulting programs that we're just saying, Here's the landing page, right? Those are words, and you, and we wonder why people aren't clicking, people who don't really know us. 

[00:23:18] Karli Grove: Yep.

[00:23:19] Marshall Stern: Okay? Or a text message or you're following up with a prospect who has ghosted you, okay? Which never happened to me.  

[00:23:29] Karli Grove: This is the Stern Truth, Marshall, come on. 

[00:23:30] Marshall Stern: Okay. All right. All right. Like, but the – okay, I'm just looking at what you said, 38% tone, tone of voice.

[00:23:41] So, I used to work for, long, long time ago, BC Lottery Corporation. Okay? this is a good story, So, it's okay. I'm not slamming them. This is a good thing. And they – I was in their sales department, their telephone sales department. This is back, like, in the '90s, early '90s, and they had a little mirror on everyone's desk, every salesperson's desk, and it had on top of the mirror, "Smile."

[00:24:04] It was just a reminder, when you're on the phone with these customers, with the lottery ticket centers, that's what we were doing, smile, because they can hear it through the phone. 

[00:24:12] Karli Grove: The tone of voice changes.  

[00:24:14] Marshall Stern: The tone of voice, they could just hear it, right? And so, when you were talking about the, when you said the tone of voice, it's like, yeah, I remember that.

[00:24:21] And the - no, it's not the tone of voice. Sorry, the body language. When you, the body language – well, still, went into the tone, like, your, your body language, went into the tone. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, yeah,  that's... Well, Maya Angelou, right? That's, it's all part of, like, what she said. People don't remember necessarily what you say, but they will remember how you made them feel. 

[00:24:41] Karli Grove: Yeah. And- And that's something to do with – that's, like, the landing pages and stuff. When people are reading words, they're reading it with their tone of voice, and the emotions that they associate with that word, with that sentence, with that whatever. Like, whatever emotions they are experiencing right now, they're projecting also onto you because their emotions influence how they interpret their tone of voice which interpret how they read your words. 

[00:25:01] Marshall Stern: Yeah. Okay, that's awesome. No, I – so, I think just, like, what I'm taking from this gold nugget from you, which, I, thank you, is, whenever possible, even if it's on even if it's through social media or through an email or any kind of communication, try to –

[00:25:18] Definitely don't just have it as words. Try to incorporate and make sure you have the right tone. You, the – and that's, that's another, we can, we can spend a whole session on, like, AI, AI and our tone of voice in AI, right, using that. But, and body language, yeah. Like, it's – Simon Sinek, right, talks about that in just, like – 

[00:25:39] I don't know if you've ever seen the video that he has about the Gen Y. You know, what does, what does he call it? Yeah, the Gen Y's and, like, the cellphones. And, you know, they could be in a meeting, or you could be in a, you could be out for dinner with a friend, and just because they have the phone upside down doesn't mean, like, it's, it means –

[00:25:56] Karli Grove: Doesn’t mean they're present. 

[00:25:57] Marshall Stern: oesn't mean they're present. It means that the phone is more important than you are. 

[00:26:01] Karli Grove: The moment the phone goes off, it's going to take priority. 

[00:26:03] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:26:04] Karli Grove: That is my exact issue. Not that I – I don't know if anyone can see this watch on my hand. 

[00:26:10] Marshall Stern: A, a real watch?

[00:26:11] Karli Grove: Correct. I refuse to wear a smartwatch. 

[00:26:14] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:26:14] Karli Grove: My mother, bless her heart, a couple years ago for my birthday, she got me a smartwatch because she, she was kind of reading between the lines of a comment that I said, which could be understood to mean that I wanted a smartwatch, but unfortunately she gave it to me and I said, Mother, I love you.

[00:26:30] I, I, I can't accept this. But it's for that reason that how many times are you in a conversation with someone and they just kind of, they're, they're still talking and they're slowing down a little bit because they still have a thought and then, Sorry. Right. And then I'm really back into it now," and they do the hit thing.

[00:26:47] Ugh. 

[00:26:48] Marshall Stern: Yeah. Yeah, Oh, sorry. Oh, no, it's, oh, yeah. Oh, I don't know who this is calling, and you break – yeah, it's like I'm not as important. I have a quick.

[00:26:57] Karli Grove: Yeah, similar with the phone.

[00:26:57] Marshall Stern: I, I have a quick story. So, there – and I've, I think I've talked about this dude on the, on the, on the podcast before.

[00:27:02] So, I have an acquaintance. I haven't seen him in a long time. He moved out to Toronto. I remember having dinner with him. This is, again, back in the '90s. I had just started my sign and graphics business. He had just started his web development company. And we had a nice lunch and, you know, I didn't really know –

[00:27:20] Like, I knew him through friends, but we just decided we're both business owners, we're going to get together and just shoot the shit and all that kind of stuff. I can say shit because it's my podcast. You can say shit too if you want. 

[00:27:29] Karli Grove: Okay, thank you. 

[00:27:30] Marshall Stern: But I'll, I'll never forget, he was so engaged with me and asking questions about me and about my family and about the business, and he was, like, legitimately and authentically, seriously interested.

[00:27:45] It was almost like, like, whoa, that kind of thing. But it was, it felt good, like I was the only person in that restaurant. There was, his phone was put away. Well, it was probably a brick phone back then. So, it wasn't in his pocket. But I'll never forget that. Like, he was just so engaged with what I had to say and about me.

[00:28:07] I had another friend who was actually my closer friend, never once would ask, and it wasn't just about me. It was he would never ask anyone questions. It was always about himself. And it felt, it felt icky. So, we weren't really great friends. We were social friends, but there was, the connection wasn't there because he never really was curious.

[00:28:28] Karli Grove: Or if he did kind of make comments, I imagine they were what I call the one-upper.

[00:28:33] Marshall Stern: Oh, yea

[00:28:33] Karli Grove: Type comments. Always has to one-up. 

[00:28:35] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:28:35] Karli Grove: I think of when I – so, when I was in high school and still living at home, I have younger brothers. They're six and seven years younger than me. And we'd go somewhere maybe as a family.

[00:28:46] I'd take my car separately. And sometimes my brothers would want to be a passenger in my car. They're like, Okay, who's going with Karli? Who's coming with us? And whichever brother's like, Yeah, I'm going with Karli." I established from the very beginning that I have a rule in my car. If you are going to be a passenger in my car, you are not on your cellphone.

[00:29:06] Marshall Stern: Hmm. 

[00:29:07] Karli Grove: Because I do not get passengers very often, and I want to visit with you, and I want you to share this time with me in my, in my car, so, please no phones. And they were awesome at respecting it. And actually, over the Christmas holidays, my one brother told me, he goes, To this day, Karli, if, and I think it's if he's a passenger in someone else's car, phone's away.

[00:29:28] Yeah. 

[00:29:28] Marshall Stern: Nice. Well, the, yeah, we could talk like, you know, Simon Sinek talks about it and we all have to do that. We have to put our freaking phones away, and we have to dial in and be focused with, with not just the, obviously the people in our family, our friends, our community, but our clients, our prospects, just people.

[00:29:45] And not, and not because we want something other than to serve and to be there to listen and to be a sounding board, just to be curious. Because, and the reason being, because –  

[00:30:00] Karli Grove: Because we're social beings. 

[00:30:02] Marshall Stern: Because we're, and we crave it. 

[00:30:04] Karli Grove: Yeah. Can I bring in our conversation that we had yesterday about phone calls and community?

[00:30:09] Marshall Stern: Sure. Absolutely. 

[00:30:10] Karli Grove: So, so we were talking yesterday about the influx of in-person events and how everyone is loving going back to in-person events because it's a space for community. 

[00:30:19] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:30:19] Karli Grove: And we were talking about that's great that you can go somewhere where a village exists, however, there's still work in between to be a villager.

[00:30:27] And that, I think, a lot of people do the illusion of villager work by texting people, messaging on LinkedIn, emailing, but it's all kind of for performance. Like you're saying, that there's an agenda behind it versus at least what I want to do this year is to have more phone calls with people because that's a way that you kind of strengthen the village dynamics.

[00:30:47] In the interim in a way of, Hey, here's my tone of voice. Hey, if anything passively, remember, next time you read my email, this is my tone of voice. I'm a very energetic, happy person. I'm not a bitch. I'm going to extend your shit allowance and.

[00:31:02] Marshall Stern: Awesome. Love it. Love it.

[00:31:02] Karli Grove: in certain ways. Nut I think phone calls are also, really important too, because, yes, the village is your 55% body language incorporation, but you still need to be able to have those webs in between the moments through things like phone calls.

[00:31:17] Because if you're just doing in-person 100% and then you do messages, you're going from 100% to 7%, So, either I'm going to misunderstand your 7% or I'm going to have a different idea and understanding of your 100%. But if we can do phone calls in between, and it's like, Okay, now I've kind of got the full range of what makes Marshall, Marshall.

[00:31:36] So, when I hear his voice message, see his text message, see him in person, I got the whole spectrum of what, how he communicates. 

[00:31:43] Marshall Stern: Yeah, 100%. And, and, and for our, before we go, for our listeners, if you take that and, like, I remember when I had my sign company, okay? I would get one of my employees, she would constantly be getting texts or with her, with her friend, I think it was with her friends, and she would misread it.

[00:32:00] Or even from a customer, and she would misread it, and she would come to my office and she would just be like, I can't believe they said this. I can't believe they're doing this. And I would just say,  I'm not going to mention her name. I'll make it up. Barbara. Barbara. Joanne. We'll say Joanne. Call them. That's not what –

[00:32:13] That might not be what they mean. Those are words. Just call them. She goes, No, I can't believe they did it. She would go back, and she would respond back, and then they're like, What? And then finally she, I got her to call them, and this happened with a client once too. Just call them. And it's like, oh yeah, they didn't mean…

[00:32:29] That's not what they were talking about at all. That's not what they meant at all. That's, that, that wasn't the tone. 

[00:32:33] Karli Grove: So, there's a video online, and I should find it one day again. It's been – I talk about it here and there, and it's a perfect demonstration of how text messages get misconstrued when you're reading it, because it's Person A sending and receiving text messages, and then Person B.

[00:32:47] And it's like Person A is angry and defensive, or is it, and how dare you? It's a, 

[00:32:51] Marshall Stern: It's, it's funny. A funny one, right? 

[00:32:53] Karli Grove: Yeah. 

[00:32:53] Marshall Stern: Is it the comedy – yeah. I've seen – yeah. 

[00:32:54] Karli Grove: And Person B's like, Oh, you're a piece of work. Oh, thank you. Even though this guy's like, Oh, you're a piece of work.

[00:33:00] Marshall Stern: Yeah. "

[00:33:00] Karli Grove: Oh, I'm a piece of work? Thank you.

[00:33:02] Marshall Stern: It's a brilliant one, and they do a whole bunch. The two of those guys, if it's the same one, I can't remember- Probably, he's a, he's an actor. They're both actors. They do a whole bunch of skits like that, but that's one of them where he says, I can't make it tonight, or something like that, or, Do you want to, do you want to go out tonight?

[00:33:17] And the other guy says, Dude, yeah, sure. And the other guy take –  I can't remember. 

[00:33:20] Karli Grove: Yeah, sure.

[00:33:21] Marshall Stern: Sure, like what do you mean, “sure”? Yeah, yeah. Sure. Obviously, he doesn't want to. What's more important? And yeah. 

[00:33:26] Karli Grove: Whatever you want. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah, whatever, whatever it goes. 

[00:33:29] Marshall Stern: Yeah. 

[00:33:30] Karli Grove: I should pull that up again and use it for –

[00:33:32] There's a couple of my presentations when I talk about tone and interpretation and stuff. I should pull that one up again to demonstrate. 7% is not a lot of communication right here. 

[00:33:43] Marshall Stern: Yeah, yeah. So, let's not leave – we don't want to leave it to just the, the, the written word, right? We need to, we need to bring in the, our, the tone, the body language whenever possible, video.

[00:33:54] Obviously, in person’s best, that sort of thing. Okay. I'm going to have to have you back, if that's okay. I'm going to have to have you back.

[00:34:02] Karli Grove: Absolutely. 

[00:34:03] Marshall Stern: Is there anything –

[00:34:04] Karli Grove: I like going down rabbit holes. 

[00:34:05] Marshall Stern: Sorry, which? 

[00:34:06] Karli Grove: I like going down rabbit holes. 

[00:34:08] Marshall Stern: I, I, I do too, because you never know where they're going to take us. 

[00:34:12] Karli Grove: Exactly.

[00:34:14] Marshall Stern: So, if people want to reach out to you, can I put your information in, in the show notes? 

[00:34:19] Karli Grove: Yeah, you bet. 

[00:34:21] Marshall Stern: Okay. 

[00:34:22] Karli Grove: Yeah. 

[00:34:22] Marshall Stern: What is your web, what is your website? 

[00:34:24] Karli Grove: Kantency.com. K-A-N-T-E-N-C-Y. 

[00:34:29] Marshall Stern: Perfect. Just in case your, people are driving and they have, like, this memory's like... but you can check the show notes too.  Karli, thank you.

[00:34:37] Thank you So, much. Yeah. It's been amazing. 

[00:34:40] Karli Grove: Yes, such a pleasure. I always love just flying by the seat of our pants. A little bit of structure, lots of leeway. See where it goes. 

[00:34:48] Marshall Stern: Well, I think for our listeners, seriously, I think there's been some gold nuggets here. Be curious. I would say I always take so many notes, like, the questions. Deep, like dig down deeper, like with your prospects –

[00:35:00] With your clients, with your staff. Ask questions. Ask the –  it's the question, it's the seven layer. It's like I love seven-layer dip, but go seven layers with the questions. 100%. So, it's the why, why behind the why. 

[00:35:11] Karli Grove: Yeah. 

[00:35:12] Marshall Stern: Like, be like- 

[00:35:12] Karli Grove: And I, one day I would love to kind of do research. You know, I think it's Brene Brown, she does - is Brene Brown vulnerability and shame 

[00:35:20] Marshall Stern: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:35:20] Karli Grove: So, like everything's kind of stemmed back to these core things. I would love to one day kind of be a Brene Brown of common sense, because I think that it all comes down to similar core elements, and maybe not common sense. Maybe that's a different tangent that I will go down a different day.

[00:35:33] But we are human beings, and as much as people give us credit, we're still animals, and there's still the same core elements that everything comes back to. And I can't remember what they all are, but it's like fear of abandonment, fear of, of push towards safety. Everything somehow comes back to safety and belonging, because we're social creatures if you dig deep enough.

[00:35:52] So, it's like okay, how are, how are belonging and safety being threatened in this situation? 

[00:35:59] Marshall Stern: I got nothing else. I mean, I, I'm, I'm still going back to this whole, yeah, I have to... I'm going to watch this again and again, and I hope our listeners do. And I want our listeners to, to, I always ask this, but don't forget, I want comments, I want feedback.

[00:36:11] If you're on YouTube, and don't try to sell me on getting this podcast up to number one on YouTube. Like, if you're watching, like don't do that. Like, like if, if you're actually listening to this, what's the, what is it, what are, what's your golden nugget that, or your takeaway of these gold nuggets that, that Karli has shared today?

[00:36:27] And we're going to- 

[00:36:27] Karli Grove: What’s a prime example of sometime, a time that your 7% went way off the deep end, and it just barreled into a misunderstanding because it was only 7%? 

[00:36:37] Marshall Stern: Exactly. Karli, thank you so much. And for the rest of you, get your comments in there, check out Karli, check her website, check her on socials, and we'll see you again next week on another episode.

[00:36:47] And Karli, don't go anywhere. See you on, again, another episode of The Stern Truth: Business Unfiltered. 

[00:36:56] Thank you so much for tuning in to The Stern Truth. If you found today's episode helpful, we would love to hear from you. Please like, share, and leave us a review. Also, if you'd like to be a guest in an upcoming episode or join us in one of our momentum accountability group sessions, simply email me to marshall@marshallstern.net. 

[00:37:14] That's marshallstern.net. And don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep pushing forward and leading with confidence.